Self-help guru on trial for sweat lodge deaths, faces up to 30 years in prison

I feel he should get the full sentence because for one he set up a sweat lodge not really knowing how or what your even supposed to do.. Which in fact is very disrespectful to the native way because this is something we practice almost religiosly.... And now it is probably turned into something sounding very scary and evil, because of one mans mistakes.. You see all these pictures taken of him and see hm on the news and he doesnt even show that he is sorry for the hurt he has caused, in fact he looks as if he sees nothing at all wrong with it.. Well it is murder because those poor people probably did not know anything about it, and he had people in such a mind confusion thinking it would be ok because they have been with him and his dream team forever, well he kinda lead them into there death and it is only there family members who are sufering from it.. obviously he is not trying to still do his stupid seminars after three deaths.. going on like he didnt sit there and watch those people dye and do nothing to even try to help, he didnt try to shut it down... It would be a huge disgrace and discomfort if someone could kill three people and get away with it by saying it was an accident, although there are people sayng he heard there screams and did nothing.. Im sorry but that sounds like a murderer....

I grew up in Phoenix and people who have lived there for a while have a much different understanding of heat and its effect on you than those from cooler climates. I couldn't help noticing that all of the people who died in the sweat lodge case were from the north.

I think the state's case will hinge on the prosecutors' ability to persuade the jury that Ray, who had conducted and participated in these sessions in the past, was an expert who misled his relatively naive followers into staying in the lodge past the danger point.

I do believe that James Ray had the ability to 'entice' people to stay in the sweat lodge. I've worked with self-help companies in the past and while the information, strategies and techniques are effective and powerful, delivered in the manner that these guru's are capable of, they take on a whole new meaning.

Unfortunately, as in many other cases, I anticipate the victim's character may be vulnerable for attack in the sense that the defense attorneys may capitilize on the perception that these were people searching for someone or something to lead them to a better place. I foresee the argument of "free will" and the level of education and position in society the victim's held to all be brought to the table as evidence that they could have and should have made the decision to exit the lodge under their own free will.

I do believe the prosecutor's hands have been tied with the ruling that will not allow them to reference historical problems at the lodge and am interested in getting Beth and Sunny's insight into why a judge would deliver such a ruling?

As a transplanted Californian living in Arizona, I agree with one of the posts that references that one truly does gain a completely different understanding and respect for the effects of heat and the importance of hydration in this environment that outsiders do not have.

Thanks Beth, Sunny and Vinnie for breaking it all down for the layperson to understand.

As a Lakota from South Dakota, where the sweat lodge originated, I am sickened that this man is portraying a ceremony sacred to my people in this manner. He is not authorized to run such ceremony and has exploited it beyond belief. This ceremony is one of prayer. We don't compete with the heat and it is never done to hurt someone. The sweat lodge is never run in the manner he used. He had total disrespect/disregard for our ceremony and the people who came to him for guidance. It is sad but very common for non-indians to find our ways alluring and mysterious and are therefore curious, but leave our sacred ways to us. Our sacred ways are not for sale and those who have to pay need to think twice about the person running such ceremony.

Kathy: Kirby Brown, my cousin and one of Mr. Ray's victims, was indeed from New York State, but lived in Mexico for 10 years, so she knew about heat. Where these folks were from did not pre-dispose them to being killed. The man is a reckless ego-maniac. That's what killed my copusin, not her being from the north.

Throw away the key. I worked for James Ray for two years, 2002-2004, before he was "big". I was never a fan. He is one of the most narsissitic individuals I ever met. It was ALL about the money for him. I am not on the witness list, but I am familiar with several of the people who are. I hope they allow past behavior be allowed because it has EVERYTHING to do with who he is. The last thing I said to the office manager at the time(who is on the witness list) before I left that he was an accident waiting to happen. I was not shocked at all when I saw the artiicle following the event that there were deaths. He is a sociopathic narsissist. He thinks he is God. He even dressed like God in one of his events and had the participants call him "God". He needs to be kept away from the public. People like him have taken a population of people who are weak and vulnerable and plays on this weakness by convincing them he can make them stronger. It is really sad people allow someone like this to take that much control. He was a cult leader like Jim Jones and David Koresh. He wanted is partisipants to worship him. He even purchased property in Hawaii to set up a "compound" to isolate his followers, again a cult. When I was there, some of the participants were sharing that family members were worried about them being involved in these events and paying so much money, and James would discourage them from remaining in contact with these family members, again a cult leader. He really loves himself. He is not capable of feeling any kind of concern or worry for another human being. He is only interested in their walet. I hope he gets the book thrown at him., I will be watching.

I find it hard to belive some white man is using a very respected tribal custom to put a hole lot of money in his pocket.By trying to use native american triditoans to his advantage. With no respect to the native culture.

I think threw the steps he brain washes them then in the sweat lodge
he adds cemecals in the steam rocks and steals there thinking.
so he has full mind control .
plus the fire that heats the rocks could have made monoxide poisning
which they did not detect in otopsy.

Why people follow creeps like Ray is beyond me. I do have some question about his guilt. I believe that those followers went in that so called sweat lodge by their own accord didn't they?

Thanks for your insight Joan...

I have seen Mr.Ray in action, sat front row and center in one of his promotional seminars. He is all about convincing whomever is in front of him that “you need this to be successful” and pushes people out of their comfort zone/puts them on the spot to get them into doing what he wants them to do. The climax of his seminar was when he asked with all of his strength “Are you willing to do whatever it takes to get whatever you want in your life?” then he said fill out the form for his seminar and go to the back table. It almost caused a riot, a quarter of the room darted to the back registration table and a good number got up and left. He has me convinced for a little while after, thankfully I came to my senses.

I know this man would never intentionally hurt a human being, but he is a prime example of what pride and money can do to you. Jim got so far that all he wanted was more money and so big on himself that he began thinking (subconsciously) there was no wrong he could do. Its referred to as “God” philosophy, and is seen in many cult leaders, just do a little research. His mindset got to the point “struggle, tired, missing your family, TOUGH!, I have done it, so can you” its apart of our natural thinking to think this, but it is not rational and nothing good ever really comes from it. It all blew up in his face, and he was stubborn and protective over his fortune he would not listen to anybody when they saw the warning signs written all over the wall.

I wonder at the sanity and judgment of 49 people who willingly allowed themselves to be humiliated, degraded, and tortured, blindly following the bizarre instructions of James Ray. How could anyone remotely believe that any of that insanity could possibly lead to enlightenment or whatever it was that James Ray was selling. Those people did not deserve to die but what prevented them from getting the hell out of Dodge when the first craziness fell from Ray's lips. I know –not think– that I would have flown that booby hatch with all possible speed and take as many others with me as I could.

I have studied various self-help books, and attended lectures since 1991, but did not follow the Secret, which is nothing more than a retelling of everything I had already studied.

I was also involved in Science of Mind, and other spiritual disciplines, and after 1997 - when I traveled to Egypt with a Science of Mind group, and returned to the U.S., I decided to sever my obsession with emptying my pockets for a "cure." No more self-help gurus!!!!!

Lastly, immediately after my trip to Egypt, I met someone who invited me to a sweat in Los Angeles. Before the ceremony, we were allowed to drink water, and the ceremony lasted for at least 2 hours. It was so hot that my nail beds were burning. But, the facilitator repeatedly encouraged anyone who became to hot, to leave, yet no water was allowed in the tee-pee during the ceremony.

It was an interesting experience, although I would never do it again, unless it were done in the Native American tradition, who understand the nature and philosophy of the shamanic practice.

This is going to be any interesting trial. But I think, And it is early on, that James Ray may not have known himself, what he was doing or he wasn't able to understand the severity of the surroundings because he too was hallucinating from dehydration. As I said it will be an interesting trail.
As for the cost of a seat -so to speak- he was stealing money from the participants.

The information used by the self help industry is as dangerous as any elicit drug or alcohol. People end up driven by an obsession to have their fix and those who become obsessed by it end up in the same place. You see people say they have been to the same seminars 8 times or more and they brag about it, which supports this belief. One of those was another self help person and one of Rays mates. The information is available free on the web everywhere. Only a few people have chosen to "make a business" out of "selling" the information and to do that they have intentionally labelled themselves gurus and world experts without any evidence of qualifications whatsoever. What these people are doing is extremely dangerous and is purely in their own interests.

I, can not belive they paid 15,000 bucks-
for any of this....

This trial should not be taking place. The trial is a byproduct of our runaway legal system wherein everything that happens in society has to be filtered through these parasites first. I suspect James Ray as one of the typical charlatans that comprise 95% of the new age "movement". I have sympathy for the dead and compassion for their families. There is no mistaking however that they were all adults and went into this voluntarily. They were probably told there were attendant risks. All are presumed to be of sound mind. They made choices. They didnt have to listen to this idiot. Any one of them could have gotten up and walked out the moment they felt ill. It doesnt appear anyone was forced to stay. It is a shame so many persons are willing to relinquish their freewill because it seems easier to have someone else hand you the answers. No one selling enlightenment has any real answers at all. You cant sell it and you wont get it in a book, bottle, or store you can only find it for yourself. What legal professionals are doing here is exploiting the grieving families for their own aims. All involved are looking at a substantial payday and america is a place where if you do something dangerous and hurt yourself its somebody elses fault.

Testament to a mans power of a manipulation, ego and inflated self worth.

I'm guessing he and several of his other cronies are rather sad that the days of asking whatever they wanted are over. Now to see some serious regulations in an area where anything went would be good.

I have very good friends, both very educated professionals-a doctor and a masters level educated nurse. They brought The Secret video over and told us they we had to watch it. They bought the whole thing hook, line and sinker. Meanwhile, my husband, also a doctor couldn't believe how easily they were convinced. It's scary really, but when an individual wants to believe in something it doesn't take much. It's very scary how vulnerable we all are to the likes of James Ray. He and all of those people in the lodge are insane, if functionally so...

yes they paid 15,000.00 and 50 people paid this...omg cant u just see the $ signs dancing in rays eye....2 pay that kind of $ 2 be humiliated & get beneath a tent of plastic tarps on the desert floor you had 2 crouch down i mean isnt this like crude!....for that kind of $ one would want 2 stay at the waldorf astoria not the motel bates....i hope he gets many years 2 reflect on his actions that killed 3 innocent people..he is a cult leader....put him away

I cant help but notice how much the people in the secret charge for their services. I just seems that since the movie came out their prices suddenly inflated to a point where they just could no longer justify how they could offer that much service for that much money. I don't know how James Ray could offer $10,000 worth of service to each individual person during that camp. It is the epitome of arrogance and greed and I hope that there is some sort of investigation into this during the trial. The producer of the secret should be ashamed of herself for creating such arrogant monsters who have preyed on people and abused their trust. They have stolen far more than their money.

Oh you mention 15,000 that makes it 50% worse!

ok people, let me say that no one literally took the money out of their hands! I was watching In Session this morning and the defense showed papers that they had to sign. Did they read everything before signing? or is it just like getting a new credit card where we do not read the fine print? He is not being charge for the amount of money they paid him (granted that's a lot of money) he is being charge for reckless homicide. I am not defending him, but sending someone to prison for thirty years is a big thing. We heard one of the witness stated that she asked the lady that died if she was ok and she said yes, she did not want to leave. one walked out and then went back in.

Again, he is not being charged for the amount of money they paid him, he is not being charged for how you perceive his personality, it pains my heart to say this (because I really,really would not pay someone that amount of money for what he was sprouting) but I do not think he he is guilty of what they are charging him with.

If I were to spend thousands of dollars on a seminar of this type I would certainly expect to have health care providers available not only during the "sweat lodge" phase but for any type of emergency. Based on what I've heard, what would happen if one were to have a heart attack or allergic reaction? "I don't know, I'm not a nurse" would not cut it and that's why he's where he is today. If Mr Ray did not have his own medical team he should have verified that the location of this seminar had medical assistance available and on day one made it clear to the participants where to go for this assistance.

Also, for that kind of money there should have been a more "classy" type of "lodge". My kids could have built one like his in the back yard!
At times I begin to feel that this is a sort of "compound" and he the "Jim Jones" of our time. My last comment is just based on MY feeling of the testimony from Jennifer Haley. My first instinct and/or reaction..... did Jennifer and James Ray have any other type of relationship outside of the seminars??

Some things I have not heard discussed:

1. Almost 5% of the people died who attended the Sweat Lodge, not just one. What if five percent of the participants died in a Sponsored triathlon during the lake swim. say 10,000 participants and 500 die. No one has brought the percentages up. This isn't an accident.

2. If this negligence happened at your local fitness center sauna they would be held criminally responsible: also, you are instructed to stay not over 15 minutes. He planned an hour and 1/2 event. I would assume the participants judgment becomes sub-par the longer they are in there. This free to leave is a joke, would he refund part of their money, did he give them details prior to the event so they could decide not to attend. Of course they feel pressured to attend, this is the finale of the what they paid 10K for. I think the whole sweat lodge tent design is negligent even without the heat. Looks to me like it could of collasped and killed a lot more than 3.

3. Ray is just lucky this has not happened before, 60 people in a tight low space, creating that kind of heat with one tiny exit is negligent . There would have had to be monitors of the heat, moisture, etc and a much shorter period of time to ensure a safe experience, but I still think the tent alone is negligent.

James Ray did not understand what he was doing because he did not have the education or the qualification to know. He probably had a mastermind to determine how much he would charge for this "exclusive" experience though and the $'s he saw gave him the opportunity to visualize the house, the cars, the holidays and whatever else he could dream up. There were a lot of people sucked into the secret who did just this so somewhere somone is accountable. My guess is that those who took it upon themselves to play teacher, guru and god over other people while using information are mightily accountable.

Personally, I am a believer in self-help and striving to enhance one's character, but in a less radical fashion and without harm to one's self. It is also important that one keep in mind, self preservation is key and while maintaining self and protecting self fro danger, that that should be done in an ethical manner. Ray's presentations in his discussions with his participants have not impressed nor drawn me in. He is not an engaging speaker:at least not in my opinion. Perhaps he had an aura or was charasmatic in other ways.

Here we go again...another egotistical, greedy, powerhungry individual who sees himself as "god." If I had paid $10,000 for this seminar(and I cannot see myself doing so)I still would not have don anything that I preceived to be detrimental to me. Perhaps initially I would have "died", but as soon as I saw my wellbeing compromised I would have "resurrected" myself and left that smoke lodge immediately.

So far, I do not like "god". I feel Ray did not plan this business venture very well. He seems to be very cheap i.e., not having the qualifications to run certain programs nor employing those who had knowledge to perform them, using free help, and untrained staff to work these retreats. It does not pay to cut corners too closely, Mr. Ray.

At first, I thought Ms. Haley was not going to be a very good witness for the prosecution, but so far she seems very caring, intelligent, self assured, observant, and possessing commonsense. Her flakiness and I do not mean that in a demeaning way because some consider me to be quirky, too, was probably a case of nerves.

This trial upsets me because you really can improve your life via self help but this is just nuts. Telling people to shave their heads? Last person who did that was Charlie Manson, it's creepy!

Also, it's entirely possible to do a dramatic, transforming experience safely - I have done the Tony Robbins firewalk at his seminar, which millions of people have done successfully, and they had a zillion employees and volunteers helping out, with a scrupulous regard to safety. There were 3 or 4 people helping/standing by for every person who did the firewalk,, plus an instruction session previously which told people exactly what to do and what not to do.

Ok so you charge $15,000 per attendee and you get untrained people in to work for you for free to help run your seminar. How could that last? As soon as the people working for FREE work out that they are worth the same amount as Ray they would squeal. If he's so successful WHY is he getting people to work for FREE? There is no doubt that the $'s he saw enabled him to visualise the house, the cars, the holidays, the artwork , etc. etc. etc. Whilever he had people manipulated and in the right frame of mind the whole charade worked. Now the whole secret milking machine is over, thank heavens for the poor souls who lost their lives and lost loved ones to such greed and selfishness.

The case would probably be over in less than two-weeks if a female television court judge presided over it. She would say things like: 'These are responsible adults. They knew from the liability waiver mailed to them that there could be a sweat lodge involved at the Warrior workshop event. They paid over $9,000.00 so they obviously really wanted to be there. When asked, the three people who eventually died said they were fine. What else is everyone to believe? If asked and they say they are fine that's what I would believe. There is no indication, from the witnesses so far, that Mr Ray conducted the sweat lodge in a reckless manner. There is no indication that people were afraid to leave the sweat lodge if they felt they needed to. I see no grounds for breaking the liability waiver those people signed. I find Mr Ray innocent of all charges against him and NOT GUILTY!! CASE CLOSED!!

There's absolutely nothing wrong with searching for a way to better one's self. If you have $10,000 to do it you're in a league most of us aren't. The more you pay, the higher quality you expect. I have been in a sweat lodge with a Lakota adopted shaman, and I paid a few hundred dollars for the weekend to compensate for my food and lodging. I trusted him, it was indeed a spiritual experience. We were encouraged to only enter and leave between rounds, but were highly encouraged to leave if at any time we didn't feel right in any way.
A dear friend of mine was in that lodge with James Ray,...he was not properly trained to hold that sweat lodge, and he did not properly train the participants, they were not properly supervised or provisioned for. Those deaths should not have occurred-free will or no free will.

Let's face reality here. Only an idiot would shell out $10,000.00 to go to a sweat lodge ceremony without spending hours on the Internet researching every possible thing that could help him to be prepared for every possible thing that could happen. There is NO EXCUSE for spending that kind of money and not preparing oneself for whatever may happen NO EXCUSE WHATSOEVER, Get it?

People spent up to $10,000.00 to essentially go to a Basic Training Warrior Workshop. As in military basic training your head is shaved. No big deal. The difference is that in military basic training you're not given a choice. Hey, if I spent that kind of money and felt the only way I have a hope of getting the very best from the experience is to shave my head I would shave my head! No big deal. If I wanted to take the chance I could always say afterward that I could have had a better experience if I had just shaven my head. After spending that kind of money I sure wouldn't want to take the chance of living with regrets.

Needy and Greedy go hand in hand.

I bet there was a good portion of the attendees who went to that event who did not know what James Ray would do, so they would continue in hope that it would be worth it. Was there a REFUND POLICY if did not agree with what you did, saw, read or were told? I bet not because i bet James Ray wanted to keep all the money for himself and that was evident in the audio recordings of what he told them before they went into that sweat lodge. he even told them to bring another $5 to give to the guy who set up the lodge. Wouldnt you think that was HIS expense?????????? I believe James Ray is very culpable in this instance but I also think that the attendees should take some responsibility for what they did and I'm sure they do now. That does not mean that James Ray is innocent just because the attendees should take some responsibility, it is what James Ray did and did not do that resulted in the death of these people and no fancy waiver exonerates him from that responsibility. The result of that meant that several people died. We dont just wipe our hands of that and say too bad so sad you all went and paid for a stupid sweat lodge. NO it is much more serious than that.

Almost speechless, I have to say the power drunk self help Guru deserves to go away for a very long time. He suckered in the suckers akin to leading lambs to slaughter and just kept getting bigger headed with each new seminar. When are people going to stop and think things through intelligently, logically and like leaders instead of followers? I understand there are many folks who are running away from something, who are sad and lost and who need someone to take them by the hand, hence so many religions in the world. All good provided the guidance is helpful and not harmful. I don't know, it all seems mostly harmful to me leaving people high on the drug of these various religions and extremely vulnerable.

there is no way this man should face any charges. if u dont know enough to save yourself from heat when dieng , then so be it. your dead. i dont need james ray to tell me its too hot.

I think James Ray is out there to take tons of money from people who are being lead to find out what their purpose in life is. They take a lot of momey from their family to pay this vulcher for what?I I cannot belive these people are so dumb as to not to leave that kind of heat to save themselves. Obviously some of them have had A FORMAL education and still do not have common sense, and three lives were lost. They are to blame as much as that ,blood sucker supposedly spiritual leader Ray James. I am sure the money helps him to sleep at nighty. He is guilty brcause he prays on the lambs he does lead yto slaughter. Wake up people pay attention to what you are getting into. Instead they go back again and again to be taken advantage of. They did not even read the waivers they signed.
There were doctors and teachers and people with education. How can they teach children when they cannot even keep their lives in tact. How could you trust a doctor to make a decision when they go to a sweat lodge and really do not know the consequences of intense heat for a long period of time. Pathetic.........I hope James Ray is found guilty, the partidipants can live with their ignorance.....
I am sure Ray laughs all the way to the bank,,,,,,,,,,,

These were intelligent people. Mostly professional people, used to taking seminars to help them improve their lives, businesses, characters and paid up to $10,000. to be enlightened.

They were STUPID – no two ways about it. If you want to improve your life, your character, you don't need to hold heavy books , put yourself through a life-threatening situation or play GAMES.

They were enlightened of their money so maybe they learned something after all. SHEEP with extra money – Help out your fellow man, do something good for your less fortunate neighbors, work in a food kitchen, save some needy animals

This trial disgusts me because it shows me what people waste their money on

Like it or not, if this is true it changes everything regarding the James Arthur Ray sweat lodge incident:

"On the night of the accident, Ted Mercer, an employee of Angel Valley Ranch and the man who built the lodge, told detectives that the tarps used were “stored with chunks of rat poison all year long in a shed,” he further told detectives that this was the first year that they used “pressed wood to heat the stones versus tree wood” and that he was “told by Hamilton to do so.” Pressed wood is well known to contain formaldehyde and other poisons and to be toxic when burned."

The universal laws have been completely taken out of context by ruthless profiteers and James Ray is a pime example.

James Ray Is A Master Mind Like Charles Madsons!

Rat poison or no rat poison, James Ray is fully responsible for his loyal subjects. Does this desparate attempt to blame someone or something else apply to every other year and every life adversely affected by James Ray's greed and deceit?

P. T. Barnum said: “There's a sucker born every minute.” Free will or not, does that make it OK to take advantage of the millions of suckers in this country?

I agree Joe, too many times these types (the JR types I mean) think its ok to practice manipulation techniques on others for their own benefit. Then their language follows when they start to use quotes such as you mention in a manipulative way, in a context which supports their new belief system. It always ends in a downward spiral of self destruction but they are in so deep that they just dont see the inevitable.

Greed and deceit seems to be a common problem amongst the self help industry. Aussie secret contributor David Schirmer was taken to court and accused of misleading and deceptive conduct by Bob Proctor and the court case ended in Proctors favor. It seems that the parasitic nature of greed infiltrates these individuals lives and turns them into something that perhaps they didnt even realize they had become. I dont think Schirmers problems ended there either they only seemed to get more exposed and more pronounced. James Ray is dealing with the same issues except his actions or inaction appears to have caused the death of a few people. The physical or emotional death of anybody as a result of the actions of these people appears to have the same results. I dont think people recover very easily when they have been deliberately manipulated for the financial benefit of another individual that they put a lot of trust in.

james ray is a sick person. he did not care about his follower'slive's. he should spend the rest of his life in prison.

There will be a "special place" for this man.........maybe not on Earth, however. He is so GUILTY of many things.
GREED= HORRIBLE OUTCOMES.
This man seems to be incapable of concern. He needs to spend a long time in a jail cell. There he will have no-one to impress.
As far as all the laws he has broken: there are those that fall under The Native American Freedom of Relgion Act.
Then you have him mixing all types of ideas and "stealing" what he tries to incorrectly call a sweat. People are in training for years by Elders before they are allowed to conduct a real Sweat. The fact he "stole" some form of "way" and tried to make it his is wrong all by itself. Then to charge folks $10,000 a piece. Again- Greed= in this case deaths/illnesses. Horrible. This man should be under the jail.
Have you watched his actions during this trial? He stands,looks around, seems not to care about anyone but himself. He seems actualy board to be there.
People need to leave the Native American ways to Native Americans.
Please remember there is NO charge, EVER.
Be careful who you follow. Check them out.
Have people learned from this yet?

I've been a fan of In-session for two years now, but this case seems to be the most uninteresting and I can only image what its like to be a jury member. The state's case is being over-played and at this point the jury must want to hang themselves to get the misery over with. The Casey Anthony trial can NOT get here fast enough.

I love watching In session, but the question that keeps coming to my mind over this case is...What about the phrase "sweat lodge" sounds like a retreat????

The Scots and Irish had sweat lodges, though they called them "healing houses" in their languages, for at least two thousand years and prehistoric peoples had them for tens of thousands of years before that. So no people have a "lock" on the invention or use of the sweat lodge.

Also it is well documented that Native American peoples pretty much paid medicine people for their medicine, mostly in goods, food and horses, but sometimes also in wampum. This is also true in many other places and times in the world among aboriginal peoples. Holding to self-righteous untruths can also harm innocent people.

I can't say this man didn't do things he must now be held accountable for, including miss-using a valuable native tradition and causing unnecessary harm. But the law will look after all that, as will the years he will live with the results. However, we must all live with the greed and need we all have a share of as human beings. There is much for us to learn from this tragic incident.